Curse

Milennin · Oct 13, 2010, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I can vanquish areas or pay for someone to vanquish them for me without ever having to step into an arena. Vanquisher titles are therefore PvE.

And you can also earn the Zaishen title without ever stepping into a PvE area... your point?

Shayne Hawke · Oct 13, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

You can't earn it exclusively through PvP. There is potential for you to earn the Zaishen title even though you have never fought another player, which is the whole essence behind the idea of "PvP". If there's no competition between players, it shouldn't be given the PvP label.

I'm mystified at how you're not following my logic yet that I've had to explain myself through this many posts.

If you can earn the title through PvE play, it is a PvE title.
If the only way to earn the title is by stepping foot into an arena, it is a PvP title.
If you have the option of earning a title through either PvE or PvP means, it can be earned without playing PvP, and is therefore a PvE title.

Gill Halendt · Oct 13, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I think we are getting into dissecting minutiae here. I want to make it really simple to everyone what my point of starting this thread was: If you want a PvP title, you should earn a PvP title doing some PvP. I don't think that is too hard to grasp, and it is a logical, forthright reason.

I agree, but still, then I don't see a reason for PvP titles to award a special point.

I'm for the removal of the "PvP title" point alltogether (which won't happen, so...). PvP titles currently count also as individual statues in the HoM, just like any other title. That should suffice, there's nothing special in them to justify the bonus, expecially since all these titles can be added in the HoM while at a rather low rank and - bar the Champion - are rather easy to get / buyable / exploitable.

Roen · Oct 13, 2010, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Seems to me if a PvP title should only be obtainable via PvP play then the reverse should hold true and a PvE title should only be obtainable via PvE play.

Since you're saying Zaishen should be a PvE title (since you can obtain it without ever playing PvP), then Sweettooth, Party, Drunkard, et al., should be considered PvP titles because you can obtain them without ever playing PvE.

Essence Snow · Oct 13, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Is the whole reason behind this..."I don't want PvE's to have a PvP title?"

Malice Black · Oct 13, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Shayne, why are you even discussing this anymore? Your logic is flawless, and their argument is getting weaker every time.

Missing HB · Oct 13, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

I'm aswell mystified at people are not getting the point of the thread...
They made things so that your HoM needs 1 pvp title . Point is , there are now a very few pvp titles , whereas you can display a huge number of pve statues . Why are some people saying : " but you can also buy sweet tooth " . Ok sure , but is that title a must for HoM? clearly not .

Point is getting pvp titles take a lot much of effort compared to pve( to people who will say " cmon getting r6 ha is easy " just think how long it takes to vanquish all cantha with any wiki build ... ) , and considering zaishen as pvp looks like an ' insult ' for people who got r15 HA , r8 champ , etc...

Wyndy · Oct 13, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

It seems to me that the point of gaining most of these titles in GW1 is to get pve rewards in GW2. If the rewards were supposed to benefit pvp'ers in GW2, then most of the titles would be pvp based.

Essence Snow · Oct 13, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I'm aswell mystified at people are not getting the point of the thread...
They made things so that your HoM needs 1 pvp title . Point is , there are now a very few pvp titles , whereas you can display a huge number of pve statues . Why are some people saying : " but you can also buy sweet tooth " . Ok sure , but is that title a must for HoM? clearly not .

Point is getting pvp titles take a lot much of effort compared to pve( to people who will say " cmon getting r6 ha is easy " just think how long it takes to vanquish all cantha with any wiki build ... ) , and considering zaishen as pvp looks like an ' insult ' for people who got r15 HA , r8 champ , etc...

Oh, so it's all about PvP E-Peen.........lol...that's too funny!

Milennin · Oct 13, 2010, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I think we are getting into dissecting minutiae here. I want to make it really simple to everyone what my point of starting this thread was: If you want a PvP title, you should earn a PvP title doing some PvP. I don't think that is too hard to grasp, and it is a logical, forthright reason.

So, I earn my Zaishen Keys through PvP'ing - then why should I be denied my PvP title just because a few powertraders and lucky PvE'ers were able to buy their Zaishen Keys with gold? I clearly PvP'ed for my title.

Skyy High · Oct 13, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

You buy your way onto a team of good players and play for your points against other players. For GvG, this is either done against a legitimate team and can be considered fair PvP, or is done in tandem with other point farming teams and falls outside of this discussion due to being a bannable offense. For HA, you can't force your way against lame teams, so playing against other legitimate players is a must, no matter how unimportant a bar you may be given to play. The argument stands.

And yet, as has been so often lamented on these forums, there's no penalty for losses. There's nothing standing between an average (or even terrible) player and r6 besides money and time, if they so desire it. Even farming UW teams will get you there eventually. If your argument is that the player must, at least, be present in a PvP arena (even if they do not meaningfully contribute to their team) to get fame, then I say...who cares? How is that meaningful in any way, how would it suddenly make the accomplishment indicative of skill, ability, aptitude, or any other positive quality associated with PvP? Does it honestly mean that much to you that anyone who wants to buy these three points must buy their way onto an HA team, as opposed to buying zkeys? F***, I'd think you'd rather them just buy the keys, so HA isn't suddenly flooded with rich noobs trying to buy their way onto your team.

Ewon · Oct 13, 2010, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

You can't earn it exclusively through PvP. There is potential for you to earn the Zaishen title even though you have never fought another player, which is the whole essence behind the idea of "PvP". If there's no competition between players, it shouldn't be given the PvP label.

I'm mystified at how you're not following my logic yet that I've had to explain myself through this many posts.

If you can earn the title through PvE play, it is a PvE title.
If the only way to earn the title is by stepping foot into an arena, it is a PvP title.
If you have the option of earning a title through either PvE or PvP means, it can be earned without playing PvP, and is therefore a PvE title.

I have to say, this is the strongest point against having Zaishen count as a pvp title. I agree, the fact that you can get something in any other non-pvp way, makes the title not pvp. Though I do not agree this makes it a pve title, just means you can get it in either.

I do have a problem with the people arguing other, pve hate, type points though. Just because you pvp doesn't make you a better person, you just have fun with a different format.

tbh, to clear this up, I think either lux/kurz should count too, or switch zaishen for gamer. Either have the title strictly pvp, or something you can get from pvp play (or not if you choose another method)

Shayne Hawke · Oct 13, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

If your argument is that the player must, at least, be present in a PvP arena (even if they do not meaningfully contribute to their team) to get fame, then I say...who cares? How is that meaningful in any way, how would it suddenly make the accomplishment indicative of skill, ability, aptitude, or any other positive quality associated with PvP? Does it honestly mean that much to you that anyone who wants to buy these three points must buy their way onto an HA team, as opposed to buying zkeys? F***, I'd think you'd rather them just buy the keys, so HA isn't suddenly flooded with rich noobs trying to buy their way onto your team.

I care. The OP cares. This discussion likely wouldn't have left page one if people didn't care. If you don't care, please leave.

If we are going to attach values such as "skill", "ability", and "aptitude" to the title and use those as a measure for what should be considered PvP and PvE, we are not going to get anywhere, because we can't possibly reach a consensus on what we, as a group, can define as "skillful". All we have to go with is a definition - player versus player. The Zaishen title does not require this interaction and therefore should not be considered a PvP title.

I am less concerned with how people have to earn their reward and more concerned with the consistency behind qualifying for a particular reward. A PvE title should not be giving a person direct credit for fulfilling a PvP objective. If this forces PvE-only players to dip a little into the PvP side of GW, that's just a side effect.

If you are insisting that I play HA, I don't think you know very much about my PvP history.

Knightsaber Sith · Oct 13, 2010, 06:51 PM // 18:51

My triumphant return after years of absentia!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I'm aswell mystified at people are not getting the point of the thread...
They made things so that your HoM needs 1 pvp title . Point is , there are now a very few pvp titles , whereas you can display a huge number of pve statues . Why are some people saying : " but you can also buy sweet tooth " . Ok sure , but is that title a must for HoM? clearly not .

Point is getting pvp titles take a lot much of effort compared to pve( to people who will say " cmon getting r6 ha is easy " just think how long it takes to vanquish all cantha with any wiki build ... ) , and considering zaishen as pvp looks like an ' insult ' for people who got r15 HA , r8 champ , etc...

My problem with this argument is that people getting the zaishen title by just buying keys in no way detracts from people that 'legitimately' earned other PvP titles. There have been PvP titles since titles were first added to the game. When people started working toward earning these, did they know about the coming of GW2 and that there would be a Hall of Monuments that required a PvP title to fill out completely? No, they didn't. They earned the title for the sake of the title itself and other people buying the one purchasable 'PvP' title in no detracts from the difficult PvP titles other people have earned.

The only circumstance where I could see this as a valid argument would be if someone had worked hard to earn a PvP title specifically to fill out their Hall but then later Anet patched it so the buyable Zaishen title counted as a PvP title meaning that person didn't need to go through as much trouble as they did. But obviously, that's not what happened. Everyone has had the same opportunity to use the Zaishen title as the PvP tic from the word go and it doesn't affect PvP'ers anymore than it does anyone else.

This argument is moot. If anything, anyone that disagrees with what I've said should instead be asking Anet to create a new GW1 to GW2 reward system that is exclusively just for achievements in PvP rather than harping over these three measly points in the HoM.

Kydd · Oct 13, 2010, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Is the whole reason behind this..."I don't want PvE's to have a PvP title?"

Snow I WANT pve ers to go out and get a pvp title. The title that says you've done everything in guild wars should reflect that you've at least dipped into some pvp imo.

-Krisd

Skyy High · Oct 13, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I care. The OP cares. This discussion likely wouldn't have left page one if people didn't care. If you don't care, please leave.

That's clearly not what I meant, thanks.

Quote:

If we are going to attach values such as "skill", "ability", and "aptitude" to the title and use those as a measure for what should be considered PvP and PvE, we are not going to get anywhere, because we can't possibly reach a consensus on what we, as a group, can define as "skillful". All we have to go with is a definition - player versus player. The Zaishen title does not require this interaction and therefore should not be considered a PvP title.

And I'm saying that fame doesn't require this interaction either. It requires you to find someone willing to put you on their team (given a whole lot of incentive), and for you to faff around while they farm newbie teams in UW for a few fame points. I know I've seen threads where people have offered to let you afk if you so desired, and since there's nothing stopping you from doing so (ie, you don't need to do squat to get credit for the victory) I'm sure it's been done (and is being done right now).

Your response is still that they're in a PvP arena. My response is, as before, big friggin deal. That doesn't mean the player actually needs to PvP, and insisting that it's "better" for a player to buy fame than zkeys is just pure obstinance at this point. You're arguing on a technicality that completely misses the point that if players weren't allowed to complete this requirement by buying the Zaishen title, they'd just buy another title, and in neither case would they at all be interested in participating in PvP, nor would they be forced to.

Quote:

I am less concerned with how people have to earn their reward and more concerned with the consistency behind qualifying for a particular reward.

Eh, those are effectively the same thing. "How someone earns a reward" depends on how you determine what qualifies as earning the reward.

Quote:

A PvE title should not be giving a person direct credit for fulfilling a PvP objective. If this forces PvE-only players to dip a little into the PvP side of GW, that's just a side effect.

And yet a PvE-er with time and money could earn r6 without ever directly participating in PvP. The only difference is it would take a lot more time to do so.

Quote:

If you are insisting that I play HA, I don't think you know very much about my PvP history.

>_>
General "you", not specific "you".

You're arguing on principle. That's fine and dandy, but it's also completely short-sighted. This isn't a theoretical discussion, nor is it supposed to be a particularly "fair" decision; this is a business decision, first and foremost. There are far more "pure" PvE players than "pure" PvP players. Hell, the game isn't even built that well to accommodate "pure" PvP players, considering how the unlock system works. On the other hand, no PvE player has ever been forced to head into PvP to get something they want, save for the PvP-specific titles and the rank emote. Why do you think that should suddenly change now, when they're trying to get people excited over their new game?

Lanier · Oct 13, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I agree, but still, then I don't see a reason for PvP titles to award a special point.

I'm for the removal of the "PvP title" point alltogether (which won't happen, so...). PvP titles currently count also as individual statues in the HoM, just like any other title.

This is probably what I agree with most. I mean, i guess its not that big of a deal since its only 3 points... but still. I don't think you should be required to PvP in order to get the 50 points. It should be an option for those who want to, and only an option so that those who don't want to dont have to in order to get the full 50.

X CDH X · Oct 13, 2010, 08:05 PM // 20:05

lol yea of course zaishen title should be PVE title not PvP. Anyone who could disagree with that is kinda dumb.

Though think what benefits it will be for GW if they did. Much more ppl would do HA / RA / and lol codex.

In the whole GW1 HoM there's a grand total of 1 PvP point - which is kinda crazy as I'd guess 1/3 of the GW player base PvP more than PvE. It would be tough for some ppl do get but would be a challenge and make the 50/50 total much harder to achieve which would be good

Lanier · Oct 13, 2010, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by X CDH X

In the whole GW1 HoM there's a grand total of 1 PvP point - which is kinda crazy as I'd guess 1/3 of the GW player base PvP more than PvE.

Its 3 points.

And I seriously, seriously doubt that 1/3 of the playerbase is primarily PvPers. My bet is that the proportion is more 85% PvE, 15% PvP. Just a guess of course, but I would be willing to put money on this guess being close to the actual proportion of PvP to PvE players.

Warvic · Oct 13, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

/signed.

It's lame. People must pvp if they want a pvp statue. This is just another stupid way to screw pvp'ers and help pve'ers.

I got G4. Casual playing random arena and you will have a pvp statue pretty fast. It will also net u alot of balthazar faction to buy u some stupid zkeys O.o

And don't even start on QQ-ing about RA being un-doable. It is doable. And if u get 3 pts in 5 hours, YOU are doing something wrong. (play less pve) And the funny thing is, i got my g4 without ever playing a monk.

And no i'm not a "pvp player". I spend way more time in pve (and i play casual). So stop QQ-ing. Just admit that Zaishen is not a worthy pvp title.

You can get Zkeys by doing pve things (Gcoins). Or you can just buy it. And in my opinion, real money titles like Zaishen, sweet tooth etc. should never be a pvp title.